Season 3, Episode 4: "Equilibrium"

Episode 4 August 17, 2022 00:44:44
Season 3, Episode 4: "Equilibrium"
The Pod-Wraiths: A Star Trek Deep Space Nine Podcast
Season 3, Episode 4: "Equilibrium"

Aug 17 2022 | 00:44:44


Hosted By

Matt Elyse

Show Notes

This week on Deep Space Nine, Jadzia Dax is plagued by disturbing hallucinations that allude to the dark past of the Dax symbiont.


Follow the show on Twitter and Instagram: @podwraiths We wanna hear from you! Email us at [email protected] Please remember to rate and review the show! thank you to dj empirical for our theme Podcast Edited by Melissa

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:34 Hi, I'm Elise Speaker 2 00:00:35 I'm Matt, and welcome to pod rates. A star Trek deep space, nine podcast. If this is your first time joining us, we're two friends watching star Trek, deep space nine, and sharing both our deep and irreverent thoughts on our favorite star Trek series. Speaker 1 00:00:48 This week, we're talking about season two, episode four equilibrium teleplay by Renee E Chave and directed by cliff and directed by cliff bowl. This episode aired on October 17th, 1994. Speaker 2 00:01:03 This week on deep space, nine J Zia Dax is plagued by disturbing hallucinations that allude to the dark past of the Dax. Sys Speaker 1 00:01:11 Dun dun dun. We don't need a sound word when we have me just like doing sound effects. <laugh> I feel like, oh Speaker 2 00:01:23 No. Oh no. Well just sing TikTok songs. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Speaker 1 00:01:27 <laugh> Speaker 2 00:01:29 Oh, that other one that's the same as it was. Speaker 1 00:01:32 I'll be like, he's my type or whatever that one is. What's the, that's my type one. That's the one of the songs I know, right? Where like the people do like the wind, the, the mirror wiping or whatever. Speaker 2 00:01:45 Oh yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:01:47 And then sometimes it's like, oh, it's someone in a police uniform. And I'm like, oh, that's not my type. Please turn this off. <laugh> that happened to me like a couple times where I'm like, I'm on the wrong TikTok right now. Like my algorithm is broken. Speaker 2 00:02:02 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:02:04 Uh, so star Trek. Speaker 2 00:02:06 Well, you know what else is broken this week? Speaker 1 00:02:09 Dax is broken, um, broken Speaker 2 00:02:15 When, um, no home. Some Speaker 1 00:02:18 Wait, I don't know what that Speaker 2 00:02:18 Is. I can't feel right. It's a see song. Oh, Speaker 1 00:02:22 But I'm dance. Oh, I, I Speaker 2 00:02:24 It's like, see they're featuring Amy Lee when they were like dating, I think, or whatever. Speaker 1 00:02:27 So like see there to me is a ver salt song. Speaker 2 00:02:32 The ver salt song. Yeah. That's the better see there. That's the better see there. Speaker 1 00:02:36 Ugh. Such a great song Speaker 2 00:02:37 And listeners while we're, you know, being old, cringy millennials talking about TikTok, I'm gonna lean Speaker 1 00:02:43 To that. Speak for yourself. I am not cringy <laugh> I am the cringing. Speaker 2 00:02:48 We are old millennials though. Um, Olivia RGO does covers root assaults either on, on tour. And so that it can look like on YouTube there's videos of her, her covering it. Speaker 1 00:03:01 We, I haven't seen this. Speaker 2 00:03:02 We love, we love children teaching other children about the nineties. So I, Speaker 1 00:03:09 I think that I actually need to say that I love Olivia Rodrigo, like specifically Speaker 2 00:03:14 <laugh>. Oh, good for you. Speaker 1 00:03:16 <laugh> um, Speaker 2 00:03:17 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:03:22 Uh, I am happier saying that didn't Speaker 2 00:03:25 You miss recording? Didn't you miss me Speaker 1 00:03:27 Last? I was trying to like reply without me. I was trying to reply. I did very much miss you. I was trying to reply with like another song title and I was like, happier, like that doesn't really work. And I was like, I <laugh>, I couldn't think of like how to work driver's license into my reply. Speaker 2 00:03:49 <laugh> yeah. Um, yeah. Overall though, this joke's a little sour. Speaker 1 00:03:52 Yeah, that's true. Um, I did almost call you a trader though. <laugh> um, anyway. Speaker 2 00:03:59 Oh, trait, Speaker 1 00:04:01 Um, stir Trek. I feel like I've said, um, so many times, and I'm just not going to apologize for that. Speaker 2 00:04:10 Don't you do you it's just like natural speech patterns and Speaker 1 00:04:14 Thank Speaker 2 00:04:14 You. Fuck everyone else. Who, who wants you to talk? Not authentically to yourself. Speaker 1 00:04:20 Yeah. So I really didn't remember this episode at all. And I thought it was going to be one that we hadn't gotten to yet. Speaker 2 00:04:29 Well, now I'm curious. What, what episode did you think it was? Speaker 1 00:04:33 Um, without explaining it, I don't think it's a spoiler to say the episode title, so I thought it was going to be facets Speaker 2 00:04:41 Mm. Speaker 1 00:04:42 Which is later this season and is Speaker 2 00:04:45 Another, and it's another trail episode. Mm-hmm <affirmative> by the same writer and the same director. Yeah. So in some ways it's like not a direct sequel to this episode. Right. But like, it's another DS episode. So I, can I get that? I get that. Speaker 1 00:04:58 Right. And like the fact that everyone was like in a room together at the beginning reminded me of a scene where everyone is in the room together. In the other episode, even though I realized afterwards it's a different room. Um, but like pretty much for the most part, except for, I think at least one person, that's not that wasn't there two people that weren't in the room in this episode. Um, it was like similar, like where, even though it wasn't like a social gathering, it felt like, oh, everyone's in a room together. And then I was like, oh wait, this is not that episode. Did you get like faceless men, like game of Thrones vibes from the hallucination in this, Speaker 2 00:05:42 It was either that or like mission impossible with all the masks and the mask reveals. Speaker 1 00:05:47 Oh, Speaker 2 00:05:47 Right, right. The masks on masks, on masks, on masks, um, which is actually kind of interesting because that whole idea of masks and multiple mass and multiple mass being pulled off was the, the Genesis of this episode and like the kernel of the ideas. So according to the star Trek, deep space, nine companion, the origins of this episode are founded in the magic show of Jeff Magnus McBride who plays Duran bilar in this episode, Michael pillar, who I was the co-creator of deep space nine, I don't think he's show running really at this point, cuz he is moved over the Voyager Iris kind of taken over as the official kind of showrunner. But anyways, Michael pillar saw McBride's magic show, loved it and commissioned their mutual friend. Um, Christopher te I think is how you say his name to drop an outline for a story based on, on the magic act. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, the magic act revolved around the use of mask. And as we were just talking about the repeated removal removal of what is seemingly a single mask only to reveal another underneath, which we see in the episode in a lot of these, um, hallucinations flashbacks memories that J Z has where the character takes off a mask and he is wearing the, the same mask under it Speaker 1 00:07:07 Real, I was just gonna say one thing that this episode did, which I appreciated was a lot of times when you see shows or movies where there's like a mask that keeps taking, being taken off and taken off at the end, it's like the face of the person looking at the mask person, like at the bottom of it. And I appreciated that, that like is not what happened here. Like if I like, I think of aria and like, you know, she's like eventually taking all, you know, taking the mask off and like finds herself underneath. Anyway. It just made me happy that, that like, that feels very TRO to me. So I was kind of happy that that didn't happen. Speaker 2 00:07:45 Yeah. Well, you know what they say, right? That you can't fight this either. Um <laugh> anyways. Yeah. Tea's original story idea involved a kind of lactic circus coming to deep space nine with a magician who's revealed to be a murderer, but nobody in the writer's staff in the writing room was, was he keen on that idea? So Renee Cheva who the credited screenwriter for the episode modified it to focus on an OTO on a, as an OTO story and a series of disturbing dreams before Ronald D. Moore suggested switching the emphasis of the plot to Dax as he felt that mass were a good metaphor for the tri species in general. And while I have, well, I don't hear mixed feelings on this episode. I like there are some, some things and I, I like thematically, but like I think it really feels like, and you can tell from that story, they took a lot of passes at it and it took a lot of like iterations. So I don't know if this is the, the best episode of, of deep space nine. I think it's overall fine. Great. Um, but I do that idea of digging into the, the trail that way and that being a metaphor of the, the mass and the relationship between host and symbiance and, you know, joining and everything else. I think that was a, a smart move. Speaker 1 00:08:58 Um, yeah, I agree. And I, I don't know if I would've enjoyed this as an OTO episode. Um, I don't think, I, I just think also there's so much about OTO that we don't know. So like they wouldn't have had a place to go and like a tri like the tri doctor and like all the stuff that happens in the episode feels very, like, I can't imagine like the alternatives to all of those things. Had it been an Odo episode? Speaker 2 00:09:25 Yeah. I think it would've been really different. I think it probably would've been more of like our kind of typical detective Odo sort of episodes. I Don know the whole like original plot of the circus kinda reminds me of the cold open of, of the James Bonfeld Octopussy right. With the murder of the double oh agent and the circus and just watch Ronald Moores and clown makeup. And there, Speaker 1 00:09:46 Yeah, I just watched that episode recently, so I'm definitely, or sorry that movie recently. So I'm very familiar. I also feel like I'm enjoying that. We're still having to sit with the fact that Otto just found out like a few episodes ago about his people. And I don't think that I'm personally ready to go back to that yet. Like, I don't remember the next episode where we talk about Otto's species. Um, and I think it's, it's nice to have a break to let us sit with what we learned in the two part opener. Speaker 2 00:10:22 Yeah. Instead of investigating kind of Otto's feelings and Otto's traumas, basically this episode is digging into the DS ambient feelings and, and, and traumas. And like, if we can like, just skip a little bit ahead in the notes and we can, um, jump back to kind of the, the next other points after. Um, I think, like I said, I don't know if this story works as well as like the kernel of, of the ideas, but I do think the themes of, of trauma and how we respond to it is a current throughout this episode that, that resonated with me the ways in which our brains can protect us from our traumas by isolating memories, blocking it out, et cetera, et cetera. But the fact that like our bodies still remember the trauma, even if we've pushed into kinda like the closet and aren't actively thinking about it, our minds have packed it away. And then sometimes something will happen, whether it's a word or like a noise or a song, or, you know, in this case, or even a piano. Right. Um, where we can get and alien Speaker 1 00:11:30 Piano get it right. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:11:31 Yeah, exactly. Um, and then we get triggered and the doors, the witch to which we have locked things away in our minds get unlocked. And then we act out and act out of character. And I think Terry Farrell is really good in this episode. Um, and I think portraying a lot of this in a lot of the, um, turmoil and like pain that, that she's going through as, as J Z has these trauma responses to trauma that the daks ambient didn't J Z wasn't even aware that daks had. Right. Right. So I think that, I think has some, some really strong kind of character moments and, and acting for me, Speaker 1 00:12:12 I, I completely agree. And I appreciated that. I feel like they had a tendency, they have a tendency and we've discussed the characterization of docs many times and how it's changed over the first two seasons. Um, and I think, I know that we're getting, this is getting pretty ahead of us, but like, there's that scene where she basically like, can't fall asleep and she goes to talk to Julian and he's so kind to her. And it's clear to me that du Z just like, doesn't wanna be alone because after their conversation, they, like, she falls asleep immediately. And I was just so happy that they made her vulnerable enough to like ask Julian if she could stay in his room with her, with him. Like, she just didn't wanna be alone. I mean, like OB, sorry. I apologize. I know Julian offered it to her, but I, I did get the impression that she might have asked if he hadn't. Speaker 1 00:13:14 Um, because it was like, I mean, why else do you go to someone's room at, at night? I mean, I guess to talk, but like, you just want to be around another person. And I, I, yeah, just appreciated that they were able to make her vulnerable because I think in the past they had made her, um, I don't, I don't mean cold or anything, but like, maybe I don't know is like, they've kind of made it where like her emotions, like can't be rocked and she's so cool all the time. So it was really just nice to see her like need help and also not like be self-conscious about that. Like it's okay to ask for help. Speaker 2 00:14:01 Agreed. And like what worked the most for me, in addition to Farrell's performances of Dax is the Bashi and, and jazzy a scenes. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and what's interesting is Iris even bear in the captain supplemental logs, the unauthorized guide to the new track voyages agrees with us. Um, and this is a quote from IRA. The whole thing with mass is what interested Michael pillar has we've discussed. I remember getting into the question about identity and the idea of daks having another host insider that she didn't know about. This seemed to bring the episode into clarity. We all started spinning on this thing. We all assumingly being in the writer's room as we've discussed. And it became an interesting show, but it was a medical show and a mystery. And the end, it kind of had a, it had a kind of, of talk it out with Cisco, explaining everything to the audience, which are always difficult to write. It was complex. What worked for me was that Terry Farrell was quite good in showing D's vulnerabilities. I also thought it was a good show for Bashier showing him caring in a medical way, but also in a human way for Dax going beyond whether he's going to screw her or not. We've kind of lost that element of the character, thankfully. Amen. Speaker 1 00:15:17 Amen Speaker 2 00:15:17 Was mean added for emphasis. Yes. But yeah, we, we love these scenes and we love their friendship when Julian isn't being a sex pest. Speaker 1 00:15:25 Yes. Agree. And they, friendship is very important to me also. Um, yeah. It's I love them and I'm glad that we're, you know, I'm not to say that they don't, like, I feel like there's times where they might flirt or something, but in a very platonic way. And I think it's great. I mean, like going forward, I didn't mean like in this episode. Speaker 2 00:15:50 Yeah, no, no, no. I, I, I hear you. I hear you. And, and, um, Alexander Sade also enjoyed this episode because of the, the medical content and the, the behi and Jack's relationship commenting. I like the medical ones because after all, it's what I was hired to do. I play a doctor it's really nice to actually get around to doing those. Occasionally, as long as the language isn't too horrific. Um, the techno medical jargon, I is my, what I'm inferring, he's talking about there when it gets too complicated, it totally fries my mind. I don't think it was too harsh in that show. I particularly liked it because it offset the usual Dax Bashier relationship for the first time. It actually showed everybody that we could possibly be good friends and that's what might happen between them. So again, it just SIM a lot of variations on a theme, but it's, it's always nice when the people involved with the show affirm my readings of the show. Speaker 1 00:16:42 <laugh> yeah, no, totally. You're like, okay. I wasn't imagining that, but also like, it's, it also talks to like the greater, you know, writing of the characters, the fact that like, you know, the actors and us are, we're all just people. And so, you know, we are, can be bothered by and like the same things. And it just, I feel like I just got, that was very like, people are people and I need to, I need to bring it down a notch. <laugh> yeah. Humans or whatever. I don't know. You know what I was really excited to see in this episode, Speaker 2 00:17:22 What ju see with our hair down in the trail pools. Speaker 1 00:17:26 I pools. Yes. But no, that's, wasn't gonna be it. I was excited to see the defiant get used. Um, barely <laugh> where, like I was like, oh, the defiant. And then like, obviously there's no like space battles or anything in this episode, but it was nice to see it move around a little bit. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:17:46 Yeah. They, they could bring every, they could bring everyone, they could bring more people yeah. To, to trail with them cuz they wouldn't have to, you know, worry about over overfilling the runabout. Speaker 1 00:17:56 Okay. So I do have like a qual with the defiant can't you like? Yes. Okay. They're like in the quarters, how are you gonna let people sleep without even a sheet? Like, or a blanket? Like I get that, you know, you, the climate's probably perfect for whoever, but like I still need to cover myself up with something. So are Julian and jet just not people that care about blankets or is the defiance dingy or is it getting installed on Tuesday? Don't know Speaker 2 00:18:29 <laugh> uh, yeah. I just think it's like, you know, so climate control that it's like comfortable, like I Speaker 1 00:18:39 Dunno, couldn't be me. That's why, um, Julian tells jazzy a little bit about like why he went to medical school. Um, and it's very lovey dovey doctors wanna help everyone, which I'm sure is true of most doctors, but we do know that, you know, he just makes, and I, I think this is my cynical 2022, um, reading of this, but he is very like, doctors are great and I'm like, okay, but our healthcare's a mess and I'm, I'm just probably not gonna go down that tangent. But like yeah, I was feeling, I was feeling things. Speaker 2 00:19:22 I mean a lot of doctors do think they're great. <laugh> um, Speaker 1 00:19:25 That's true. Speaker 2 00:19:26 That's, that's definitely a like prevailing attitude to various degrees of um withitness and, and lack of withitness depending on the individual, in my experience. Um, mm-hmm Speaker 1 00:19:41 <affirmative> yeah. I like my doctors. I'm I'm lucky though. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 2 00:19:48 Mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 1 00:19:50 We also learned that in this episode that jazzy is not a napper. There's that one line she's like, I can't sleep in the afternoon and I was like, naps are wonderful, but it is kind of fun to like find out, I wonder if it's a troll thing or like a jazz Z, a specific thing. <laugh> anti nap. Speaker 2 00:20:10 <laugh> <laugh> uh, Speaker 1 00:20:14 So anyway, I think we, um, I think we set our initial thoughts. What do you think <laugh> on the episode we Speaker 2 00:20:21 Get to go to tri for the first time, Speaker 1 00:20:23 The first time I'm so Speaker 2 00:20:24 Excited tri the tri home world. Speaker 1 00:20:27 Um, it pretty much looked, I mean, for the most part, except for that cave, we just saw the inside of buildings. So it was kind of fun. Like, um, last time you weren't here, but we were watching house of cork. And so it was really nice to see like an out, like an outside set or a picture or whatever. It was a model of, Speaker 2 00:20:49 Um, the matte painting Speaker 1 00:20:50 Yeah. Of the cl on, um, Speaker 2 00:20:52 The Imperial city. Speaker 1 00:20:54 Yeah. Like that was really awesome. The one Speaker 2 00:20:56 From it was for like the one that they, the matte painting they were used from T and G. Speaker 1 00:20:59 Oh, I just didn't know what it was that I didn't know about. Yeah. Um, so that was really fun. So I feel like I do enjoy when we go to the different home worlds of our favorite characters or, you know, their, um, brides or whatever <laugh> I guess, I guess co wasn't married when he went there originally. Um, but yeah, the doctor, um, I didn't catch that doctor's name, the one that was trying to help. So basically jazz is acting really obnoxious and out of character. And as we kind of hints it at, she apparently can play the space piano, even though she has no memory of learning it. And she's seeing these weird dudes in her hallucinations and some of them are trying to kidnap her, um, at the doctor, the I, when I first watched it since I didn't remember what happened, I like didn't really think anything of the doctor that was trying to help, but then obviously on second watch, I'm like, oh yeah, she like is covering something up. Speaker 1 00:22:07 She's so dismissive of, um, of jet Z when she goes on about her hallucinations. And it just made me think that, um, it, that how, how so many people go to the doctor and say, I have this issue or that issue and things are just dismissed. And obviously this is for like nefarious reasons. And I think a lot of times, um, the, on the, in our world, it's more of like a systematic issue where either they're not trained on that or they have biases that they may not even be conscious of. Um, so it's not the same. So like, obviously this person was like trying to cover up that there was an extra, an extra host mixed in there. Um, but it mm-hmm, <affirmative> the fact that she was being dismissive felt a little bit too. Um, it felt very relatable to things I see on television now, things I read, um, that actually are happening to people like it just I ever, ever since, um, our friend Tessa has told me about, um, what they, what their dissert, what her dissertation is. And she's mentioned it a little bit when we watched, um, Mo Laura altogether, where, when we covered Meur. So if you're interested in that, go back and listen to that episode, but just like how medical stuff in science fiction does like kind of mirror the real world or is informed by it. And it's just really interesting. Speaker 1 00:23:47 I don't know why all those feelings were triggered, but no, it's, I'm done now. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:23:55 So the, like the main thrust, I just kind of do like a 60, Speaker 1 00:23:58 62nd Speaker 2 00:24:00 Just to do a 62nd plot summary, um, is J Z is having these memories like repressed memories from a host. She wasn't aware of, um, named Jo Ballard, Jo Dax, or Joan Duran, sorry, Jo Joan Duranar or Joan Dax when he was joined fun. Lo fact, this episode establishes that tri do have a family name that then gets replaced by the Sy name when they're joined. Speaker 1 00:24:29 And I didn't realize we hadn't known that before. Well, did we not? Speaker 2 00:24:34 No, no. Cuz we'd only like, cuz like RJA who was the, um, the tri initiate that J Z like toured around, we never got a last name from him. Speaker 1 00:24:45 Right. But we know fur on DS and we know that they weren't related Speaker 2 00:24:50 You. Right. But we didn't know that Jack DS had or DS, blah, sorry. Troy had a family name, like a surname that then got replaced. We knew that like, yeah. Okay. Speaker 1 00:25:00 I get what you're Speaker 2 00:25:01 Saying joined. You got the DS, but it's just like, it's not just, they could be like, Speaker 1 00:25:05 I know I realized you're now you mean it in like they could Becher or Madonna kind of way like name one name even though, you know? Yeah. Speaker 2 00:25:12 And like if they're unjoin they were Cher or Madonna. Yeah. Um, Speaker 1 00:25:17 Or, you know, whatever Madonna's last name is Madonna, that person <laugh> I forget what Madonna's real name is. Speaker 2 00:25:28 So Duran's Duran's memories were blocked in the ambient and his history of being joined was the cover up was because he was a murderer and the symbiosis commission obviously made a mistake in giving him the synt because he was not, you know, the type of individual that they would normally yeah. Give a, a trail to. And it turns out that like the cover up goes even even deeper and even further because maybe you don't need to be a, a certain type of trail to be able to survive joining maybe any trail can. And there's a limited number of symbiance. And so we've stumbled upon a government conspiracy. Speaker 1 00:26:14 I just picture like they, the, the whole time that I'm watching this, I'm like picturing if they, if it got out and like, what do they think there's gonna be like a symb black market or something. I mean, maybe there would be, I would bet that there is already one. Um, I mean, people are creative <laugh> I feel, I feel like I don't, I get, it was an easy way to explain why they were trying to cover this up, but like, it didn't, it wasn't enough. A reason for me is all I'm trying to say. I don't know that governments need a good reason to cover things up though. They just do that anyway. So like, I shouldn't expect like more. Speaker 2 00:26:59 Yeah. I just think it was like supposed to like, it's something that like upsets how trail society has been, like one of the foundational assumptions of trail society and to have that be made public are known, right? Like totally like upsets the apple apple cart. Right. Speaker 1 00:27:18 I do kind of wonder how classes the search for who gets to even apply to be a host is like, yeah, yeah. Is it like Jedi where they like go around and like, I don't know. You sense? Some, someone has the force and, or LORs or whatever the fuck. And like, even if they're not rich, you might sense like a person or whatever, or is it just like, you have to have connections to like get in there. I would read a book about this and like, as long as I had some sort of political conspiracy, I, I would read that novel Speaker 2 00:28:03 Mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 1 00:28:05 I did feel like Julian did a lot of Googling in this episode Speaker 2 00:28:09 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:28:10 And I thought for, I was like, well, of course he's gonna do it. Cisco's the boss. He's not gonna do it. So that was kind of funny to me. Can I talk to you about the scene where they meet Baylor's brother on that? Like FaceTime and Speaker 2 00:28:27 <laugh> yes, please. Speaker 1 00:28:29 So they find Baylor, Baylor, Baylor, whatever it is not LAR Baylor Speaker 2 00:28:36 Around LAR. Speaker 1 00:28:37 Yeah. Um, Baylor is a different thing. Um, who's like, yeah, my brother killed his, killed the doctor that kept him from becoming a host and fled the murder scene, blah, blah, blah. And like the whole thing that's so funny to me about this is like Cisco and Julian like pop up. And he was like, what is this in reference to? And I'm like, if I had a brother that like killed a doctor and fled the murder scene, anytime anyone wanted to talk to me about anything, I would assume it's about my brother that did a murder. <laugh> just seems like, you know, kind of obvious, um, like what else would they wanna talk to to me about <laugh> Speaker 2 00:29:20 Yeah. Yeah. Although I did kind like, again, this is, I wanna, I wanna make this very clear. This is a murder is not great podcast. We do not love murder on, on this podcast. Speaker 1 00:29:35 The only murder that we love is murder. She wrote Speaker 2 00:29:38 <laugh>. There Speaker 1 00:29:38 Was only one of us love that though. Speaker 2 00:29:40 But when jar Duran's brother was like, whatever, my brother was, I still loved him. He was still my brother. I'm like, that's, you know, kind sweet. Like he realized that murder. Isn't great. Your brother shouldn't have killed people, but like, you know, there, there was like a, like if some old man sweetness there to that, Speaker 1 00:29:58 Like I also felt like it would not have worked if it wasn't an old man, because a younger person would've like probably not gossiped his brother's whole life to two strangers. <laugh> <laugh> yeah. I got a lot of enjoyment of that scene. That is all, so I don't, I, I mean, I think we can discuss how the episode kind of resolves itself. Um, Speaker 2 00:30:25 Yeah, Speaker 1 00:30:25 Basically daks has to go back into the like Symbian pool and then she'll get the, the other, Symbian do some electric shit to her and then she'll get her memories back from BVA. And, um, it's interesting because like the reason why there's like the, a memory block that they had put inside of her and that is like deteriorating and it is interesting because there's it, I was like, oh, I guess they don't have eternal sunshine of the spotless mind there. Cuz like, in those, in that case, it's not a block they're like actually removing the memories. So I just found it interesting that it was, um, done differently than like another memory of removal piece of media that I enjoy. Speaker 2 00:31:14 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:31:15 I really, um, I'm gonna save this for, for the next section. The thing I was gonna say, did you have anything else to, um, wrap up before we move on or Speaker 2 00:31:28 Yeah, I just think it was like interesting the ways in which so, so we meet the guardians in this episode as like a new piece of like chill lore that, that drops who are unjoin trail, who are basically the, the caretakers of the baths or ponds or mm-hmm <affirmative> Geers or whatever you wanna wanna call it, the paint pots that the, the symbiance like live in and nurtured in and seem to have this almost third sense and they know jet Zs, DS and, and all of that. Really? Speaker 1 00:31:58 Yeah. That was interesting. Speaker 2 00:32:00 Um, Speaker 1 00:32:01 Tim Moore was the one guy that Speaker 2 00:32:02 They met. Yeah. Yeah. And Tamora is like very, um, helpful to them at first and then obviously sets them on the right path and is crucial in uncovering the mystery. But then when they go back, um, obviously he's, he's been gotten to by, by the conspiracy. Speaker 1 00:32:15 I can't believe I skipped over all of this. I'm sorry. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:32:19 No, it's it's it's okay. It's okay. So I just thought that was like interesting the ways in which like the deep state air quote, the trail deep state, um, <laugh> got, got to him and he got got in, in that way and how like even, you know, he was so helpful and then became complicit in the cover up thought. That was interesting too. And then like towards like then the, the catharsis at the end, um, Renee and, and writing this episode, partly based the pen ultimate scene. Hi Ellie. She wants, Speaker 1 00:32:48 I know Ellie's like role. I Speaker 2 00:32:50 Finish this. She wants out of the room now she's whining. She wants her the room, what I'm podcasting. Um, Speaker 1 00:32:57 She's really upset. Accepts that Tim Moore became cagey Speaker 2 00:33:01 Was, was. Yeah, exactly. Um, so in the penultimate scene where DS accepts Duran's memories, it's based on a scene by a Peter Schaffer play called Equis. And in that play, the word Abre is used as psychological term to describe the relieving of a trauma. And H of ARA felt that that was what was exactly happening in the scene. And when I read that again, I was like, yes, there are themes of trauma in this episode. Good media literacy, Matthew, good Speaker 1 00:33:29 Job. <laugh> I'm proud of Speaker 2 00:33:31 You. I'm just gonna let the dog out just a sec. Speaker 1 00:33:32 Oh yeah. Who let the dog out. Speaker 2 00:33:41 Hey, sorry about that. Speaker 1 00:33:42 That's okay. I said I missed it, but I was like, who let the dog out? Um, I did also, I like, I think I just fucked up of where I was in the notes is really what happened. Um, but like I really was kind of, um, really thrown off when that doctor, lady was like, oh yeah, we're gonna take this Sy out in 48 hours. And I'm like, Speaker 2 00:34:10 Yeah, Speaker 1 00:34:11 That's real extreme all to cover up. So the deep state killing people. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:34:17 In a lot of ways, it was kind of like an X-Files episode. <laugh> I haven't seen that like co conspiracy stuff in like interesting. Speaker 1 00:34:25 It's funny because I believe the next episode also is a like conspiracy episode. So that should be interesting. Speaker 2 00:34:38 Well, what your final, final thoughts on, on equilibrium, would you say it's an, it's a well rounded and balanced episode or it doesn't quite, it tips the scales for you in a different Speaker 1 00:34:49 Way? No, I liked it does or doesn't I liked it. Um, I liked it more like, cuz I, you know, I said, I didn't remember it because I didn't remember it. Um, I just think it's weird to be, like I said this and it was like 20 minutes ago. So I can just say it again. Um, yeah, no, I liked it. It was just, um, the only, yeah, it just seemed like, it seemed like a silly cover up to me. Otherwise I liked it. Like I found it interesting. And I like the idea that like there's new things that jet Z can learn about herself though. I guess she should have known that the whole time, but she didn't. So, Speaker 2 00:35:28 Yeah. And what's interesting about this being the first time we meet the guardians and, and spend time on the trail home world, et cetera, et cetera. Um, that come has come back in, in discovery season and even a little bit like in season four, right. With, with Adera and gray and, and the tall symbiance and, and things like that too, with the guardians. So this, this is the episode that started it all. Speaker 1 00:35:52 Yeah. I love when, um, lo is throughout and I don't mean that in a like Canon gotta stay candid. Like I don't care about that, but like I do, like when things come back like that are cool or species specific or like I'm loving all the Vulcan stuff in strange new worlds season one. It's great. I Speaker 2 00:36:13 Need my pain. All right. So speaking of pain, we've been talking for a bit. I have been having coffee, but I haven't had any water yet this morning. So I'm a little thirsty Elise, I don't know about you. Um, who are you thirsting for this week on deep space? Nine Speaker 1 00:36:31 Probably no surprise to anyone. I am thirsting on Chad Zea. Three ways. <laugh> um, yeah, I'm loving that her hair is less poofy. That is great. I was kind of into her when she was being an arrogant asshole at the beginning and I'm absolutely in love with the white gown that she's wearing when she goes into the pool. And let me just say that tri fashion designers know how to do a cap sleeve Speaker 2 00:37:08 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:37:10 What about you? Speaker 2 00:37:11 Yeah. I don't know if I was, um, particularly thirsty for anyone despite my, um, very professional and not all schlocky and, and sweaty, um, segue, introduction to the segment. Speaker 1 00:37:24 <laugh> I don't think, I mean, we wouldn't you to, we wouldn't want you to introduce it any other way, so, but I do, I do wanna like say that my feelings were more like heart eyes than like, you know, thirst, if that makes sense. Speaker 2 00:37:41 Yeah, it does. It does. It does. It Speaker 1 00:37:45 Does. Do you have, um, a candidate for the most star Trek thing of the episode? Speaker 2 00:37:50 Yeah. So my most star Trek thing was we have an alien crew member who returns to their home world and uncovers a conspiracy of sorts. Um, it's definitely something that the, the first time we went to the Kon home world in T and G was related to some family drama and Kon coverups with Wharf in, in season two, I think it was, or, or season three. I can't can't remember. I think since of the father is season two. Um, and I just feel like it's something that has happened before. Um, maybe it'll happen again. I know, um, even as far back as season two, the original series where we go to Vulcan for the first time in AMOC time, not really a big conspiracy there, but also things are, are revealed. You know, there are secrets that are, are revealed and we get insights into, you know, their, for sure. Speaker 2 00:38:42 The Vulcan culture kind of for the first time aside from, from just Spock. Um, yeah, it's it's I know everyone on the recent episode of not this week's episode, but last week's episode of mm-hmm <affirmative> of strange new worlds, um, everyone was like, oh, that surprise character. That was, that was revealed at the end. Um, but I had a moment earlier, speaking of AMOC time where it's like, cause obviously Tor as a, a character on strange new worlds mm-hmm <affirmative> um, at the rehabilitation facility, she was working, um, stone also had a, had a brief cameo who also a features pretty heavily in the plot for AMAC time. So I was like, Leo pointing me there for that Speaker 1 00:39:24 <laugh> Speaker 2 00:39:25 We can talk more about where, where that's going off Speaker 1 00:39:28 There. Yeah. But also, um, if you haven't watched it yet, it's changed your world is so much fun. I'm very much enjoying it. So I highly recommend it to our listeners. Speaker 2 00:39:44 And the good news is, is, uh, paramount. Plus has I believe as of this recording launched a death by the time this will air has launched in the United Kingdom. So a little bit behind for what's airing live in, in north America. Yes. But, Speaker 1 00:39:59 Uh, you'll Speaker 2 00:39:59 Have, I've been easier access to Speaker 1 00:40:01 It. Yeah. I've been bullying Lai specifically to watch that. So this week I actually sent him, um, I texted him a picture of every single cast member to be like, everyone's hot. You should be watching this. Speaker 2 00:40:16 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:40:18 Awesome. I would say, and this is something that actually also continues on strange new worlds. Um, the idea of people having food together on star Trek. Like that's something that I I've kind of noticed it ever since. I mean, we all know that my favorite star Trek film is the undiscovered country and we have that amazing scene where the, the Klingons join the crew for dinner and it's like real awkward. Um, but in strange new world, they have this too. They, there was an episode where pike and was pike was cooking dinner for some of the crew. And this is how we started today's episode of deep space, nine having, um, commander, Cisco cooking food for his crew and like them just sharing a meal together. And I am a huge proponent of, um, sharing food and having meals together with people, with friends. Um, and I just think it's, it's one of my favorite things. Speaker 1 00:41:26 I love sitting down to dinner with a bunch of people. I it's, the conversation is always fun. Like I just, it's something I love and I really enjoy when they portray that on star Trek for, for good or bad or, um, fun or awkward, it's always enjoyable. Um, and that was something that was done on discovery too. Um, there was, I, although this was kind of like an awkward moment, but I remember the one dinner that they had on discovery where der like kind of screamed out at everyone. Um, but like they were having dinner together. It was that until then it was, it was, um, and that was trauma related also, but like, I just love people gathering together for a meal Speaker 2 00:42:11 Almost as good as gathering together for a podcast. Speaker 1 00:42:15 <laugh> I mean, we could be eating while we're doing this <laugh> Speaker 2 00:42:21 While on that note, Elise until next time where I can folks find more of you on the internet, Speaker 1 00:42:25 You can find me on Twitter and letter box at Elise underscore 10 E L Y S E underscore, T E N D I and you U Speaker 2 00:42:33 Yeah. You can find me on Twitter lot and letterbox as well at Madue M a T T Y H U G H. You can catch us together on Twitter and Instagram at pod race, and you can also email us at pod race,, Speaker 1 00:42:48 Please remember to rate and review us on the pod catching system of your choice. And again, thank you to DJ and Perigal for our inter stellar theme song Speaker 2 00:43:00 And raising a mug of Iraq DEO to our editor, Melissa. Speaker 1 00:43:05 I was gonna say that I'm gonna put some Baileys in that though. I feel weird toasting without alcohol. I don't know if that's a me a me thing. Speaker 2 00:43:16 Well, I mean, yeah, it's maybe we can, we can toast coffee from Michigan Kelly's cafe in Ohio for our editor, Melissa instead, um, meet in the middle until next time, computer and program. Speaker 1 00:43:32 Bye.

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