Season 3, Episode 5: "Second Skin"

Speaker 1 00:00:34 Hi, I'm Elise Speaker 2 00:00:36 I'm Matt, and welcome to pod RA a star Trek deep space, nine podcast. If this is your first time joining us or two friends watching star Trek, deep space nine, and sharing both our deep and irreverent thoughts on our favorite star Trek series. Speaker 1 00:00:50 This week, we're talking about season two, episode five second skin teleplay by Robert Hewitt Wolf and directed by Les Lando. This episode aired on October 24th, 1994. Speaker 2 00:01:04 This week on deep space, nine Kira is kidnapped by the Kardashians who tried to convince her that she is really one of them. Speaker 1 00:01:11 This that is a wild plot, cuz like if anyone was gonna be pissed about being a Kardashian <laugh> it would be Kira Speaker 2 00:01:20 Well Kira or miles and a fun fact. That's fair. The original idea for this episode was miles was going to be the deep color, deep, undercover Kardashian operative. I did not. But then they realized then they realized, oh wait, why would KCO and miles have a fully human child, if you secretly been a Kardashian this whole time. And so then they pivoted to Kira. Speaker 1 00:01:46 That is a really funny reason to change it. Um, I love that <laugh> they would like have to make some real intricate like story about how Molly is like fake or something <laugh> to make that work. Um, I did not remember this episode, except I, for some reason, remember the cold opening where Kira and Zach are like gonna go hang out in the hollow suite and Kira is all judgey about it. Um, yeah, it's just, I really, I really thought that was also a funny way to start the episode because Kira's face was changed through most of the episode and it just felt like it was almost like a hollow sweet episode without actually being a hollow sweet episode. Speaker 2 00:02:35 Yeah. Yeah. It's did like when you saw the NA visitor in the clinging on or not the cling on, excuse Speaker 1 00:02:45 Me, Speaker 2 00:02:46 The Kardashian makeup mm-hmm <affirmative> did like that ring any bells for you as you got later in the episode or like, no, I like really totally. You didn't remember this one at Speaker 1 00:02:53 All? I didn't remember. I didn't remember the twist. I didn't remember any of it. I really only remembered that Dax and Kira had a hello sweet date and that Kira was like, they were basically going to an escape room <laugh> and Kira was like, this Speaker 2 00:03:10 Shit sucks. Speaker 1 00:03:11 <laugh> I'm gonna get germs. What are you, what are you making me do? Um, but yeah, no, I really didn't remember that the rest of it. Um, I was <laugh> although like I definitely was watching this episode like and joking to myself. Oh, so this is what gas lighting is, right? <laugh> Speaker 2 00:03:32 Yeah, I think the like much, like I think there were some really interesting themes of trauma and our mind and our body's responses to, to trauma. In last, the last episode we covered equilibrium. I do think there was some interesting things we could talk about in terms of body dysmorphia in this, in this episode as, as well when Kira her, her belief in that, you know, is this her body isn't this, her body like when she doesn't, when she starts to kind of become unsure and start to feel like, um, more unstuck in what is, what is real and, and what is not. And you know, particularly after she sees like that video of herself, that right. Spoiler alert obviously has, well, maybe it wasn't doctor. And maybe that was the, really, the real probably was a video of the real I Gamo. Um, of course we assume you've watched this episode already spoilers, um, for the episode that we're covering, um, that they used and just IA just looks that much like the non visitor, I guess, are that much like Kira Speaker 1 00:04:44 <laugh>. Um, I have a secret to tell you <laugh> Speaker 2 00:04:48 Yes. What's that Speaker 1 00:04:49 It is a non visitor Speaker 2 00:04:52 <laugh> oh, wait star. Trek's not real. These aren't historical documents. Um, I'm leaving. Why are we spending so much time talking about this? If this is all fake and made up Speaker 1 00:05:03 Mm-hmm <affirmative> because we like each other and we like talking it Speaker 2 00:05:07 <laugh>. Ah, that's true. That's true. So did you enjoy the episode at least? Did you, did you like it? So Speaker 1 00:05:16 I enjoyed the episode the first two times I watched it and then I watched it three times this time only because, um, some scheduling things and we had to, um, postpone when we were recording this. So I, we were prepped and then I was, uh, I had not forgotten it, but like forgotten it. So I was like, I gotta do this again. Um, the third time I was like real bored the whole time until the twist. Um, and then I was like, oh yeah, I forgot that part. And then I was into it again. So I think overall, yes, but there were part like, I was like over it, I was over the like, like gear up of it all. I liked the idea that they would like do this to frame someone like that. The spy shit was fun. Speaker 2 00:06:06 Yeah. And like, I think that this is an interesting episode two as like, it kind of brings back like some of those through lines that we've encountered before in, in previous seasons, like this is the second episode that mentions the growing dissident movement in Kardasian cuz we we've had that, you know, come to the station where becoming more familiar of who and what the obsidian order is and kind of how, who they are and how they operate. So definitely I think we're seeing deep space nine kind of continue to flirt with this, like more kind of serialized storytelling and kind of build on the ways in which the next generation started to tell these types of stories, obviously DS nine, um, we know will become more serialized than kind of any of the other of its contemporary shows as it goes. But it it's, I think it's a really strong episode in terms of both being like, oh, this is a cure episode mm-hmm <affirmative> but then picking up and kind of continuing on those themes that build out the other world that build out the world. Speaker 2 00:07:17 Yeah. And, and then we also get some other kind of insights into Garrick's potential background. Yeah. Yes. Or, and things like that too. Which again, having, you know, been through the series a couple times, it's like, oh yeah, this is the one where Gar does this. But like I try to as much as possible, put myself more in that head space where it's like, where Gar is that full mystery to me and we're getting these like, you know, half truths and lies and you know, what's true. Especially the lies sort of, um, moments revealed out there. And I mean obviously N tech who cooked up this scheme to catch temore with, uh, you know, his, his fake daughter as a, as a kidnapped major, Kira right. Obviously had history with Garrick and they got along until Garrett killed him in this episode. So Speaker 1 00:08:08 I, one of the things I love, I love Gar. I'm so excited. Every time he shows up, um, I love how subtle he always is with Julian. Um, <laugh> he's like, yeah, he's very much like he won't just ever come out and say anything he has to be, he has to hint. So when he actually said that he had news about Kira, I was surprised he was like that direct about it. Speaker 2 00:08:35 So forthcoming. Speaker 1 00:08:37 Yeah. But it also felt like Gar it Gar knows that Julian cares about Kira. So Gar is going to help like that. That's what it felt like to me, like it was like a line of like Gar is friends with Julian and Julian cares about all of his friends because Julian is a sweetheart baby. Um, whether or not Kira, it cares about him too. No idea. But Julian cares about everyone. Um, so like it was just really sweet that Gar helped him like help his friend. I really liked that. Um, I thought it was really funny that Cisco made Gar go, go with him to Kardashian. Um, even though he'd been banned. So it was very, like you knew he was gonna run into someone, you knew he was gonna see someone he knew that was kind of, um, yeah. A given and we find, you know, as you said, he knew N tech and everything. Um, and I guess he knew, uh, like the, the other guy too Kira's fake dad or whatever. Yeah. Um, cuz she gives, he gives her that warning about Gar at the end. Like don't trust. Speaker 2 00:09:45 That's true. That's true. Speaker 1 00:09:47 That's true. Which was kind of interesting. I thought it was really funny when, um, in attempt to get Gar to go with him to Kashia cuz Gary's like, I can't go, I'm banned from there. And Cisco does the like, well maybe we'll work something out. I mean, some people aren't even happy you're on the station and it just is, it reminded me of the pilot where Cisco kind of bribes cork into staying on deep space nine. Um, and like that kind of got brought up a couple weeks ago too. Um, I don't remember if it was in the house of cork episode of where you weren't there, but the, um, Cisco, you know, have asking co to stay and everything. Um, so just kind of was funny to watch Cisco like continue to try to make deals with, um, people that could be adversaries, but he wants to use utilize them for his own benefit or for the benefit of star fleet. Anyway, I don't think Cisco thinks just of himself. Speaker 2 00:10:53 No. And, and he's willing to use all of the tools in his toolbox or all of like the avenues available to him to further his goals, right? Yeah. To like, yep. That's, that's something very, very Cisco. Um, also interesting to note kind of before we kind of talk and, you know, kind of go through the, the plot in, in greater detail, um, NAA visitor suffers from claustrophobia and grace greatly disliked wearing the Kardashian makeup for this episode, which of course AR required her to arrive to be in the makeup chair at one 30 or sorry, excuse me. Yeah. 1:30 AM each morning to geez, have the multiple hours long application to be ready for shooting. And after a particular long day, a 20 hour day of shooting, she told Les Lando, the director that she had to get outta the makeup and they would be doing pickup shots the next day because her claustrophobia was too strong. Les Lando wanted to continue shooting a while longer, not great. Bob and visitor to her credits began to physically remove the makeup on sets and was like, no, I am done. This is my boundary. I am not working anymore. Thank you. My mental health is more important. Speaker 1 00:12:21 We Speaker 2 00:12:21 Can, we good? Yeah. Yeah. Also not great that that land out was like, no, no, no, no, no. We'll just keep going. We'll keep going. No's like the health of your actors is I'm Speaker 1 00:12:33 Kind of getting, I'm kind of almost feeling like panic, attacky, just hearing about that. Like thinking if I was in her shoes, that would be terrible. I also have a little bit of claustrophobia, so that would probably be difficult for me as well. Speaker 2 00:12:50 Yeah. And like, I can't imagine what it must feel like to have that type of like makeup on for like that long. Like what it like does like, you know what I mean? Speaker 1 00:13:02 And it's probably very heavy too. Like you're not like you have Speaker 2 00:13:06 And, and hot and like yeah. Speaker 1 00:13:08 Yeah. Ugh. Speaker 2 00:13:10 And like annoying. Would that be where it's like again, so like Nana did this for this episode specifically. Um, but like you have the characters who are in makeup all the time, like the forgi characters or even OTO. So it's like how much earlier every day were, were Armen and Renee and like, you know, the other alien characters getting there to have their makeup on. And then the human cast members just roll in four hours later with four more hours of rest and a coffee in hand. And it's just like, man. Speaker 1 00:13:46 Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Yep. I mean, I'm sure even doing D's makeup depending on how clothed she is going to be in that episode took a long time and that was not even as much. Speaker 2 00:13:59 Well, and that's why Michael Westmore, the like makeup designer, makeup artist, he would sign her spots. Like it got to the point where he, she asked him to start signing his spots. So he would sign them every day. Cuz they were, he was, she was in the chair so long while he painted on the spots. Right. Speaker 1 00:14:15 Hmm. Lots of makeup. I'm thinking about the Bejo nose makeup. That probably that one probably wasn't so horrible. Speaker 2 00:14:25 No, it's probably a, a fairly by that standards, like less extensive application. So I, I feel like if it was incredibly terrible, they couldn't have convinced Frank Cella to do it. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:14:40 Um, but Speaker 2 00:14:41 That is true. Speaker 1 00:14:44 Uh, I almost just called him Frankie L for some reason. Speaker 2 00:14:49 I mean Jersey, baby. Yep. Baby it's called prosthetics tea. Speaker 1 00:14:57 <laugh> I don't know if you saw, um, that one, um, Instagram was posting all the pictures of like Tony Sarco when he was like younger this weekend. Speaker 2 00:15:10 Um, no I didn't. Speaker 1 00:15:11 And it was like, cuz there's this one photo from like a while ago. He's like on the beach. I don't remember what year it was, but he's like wearing pants cuz it was like quote unquote olden times. Um, but yeah, he was not unattractive. Speaker 2 00:15:26 I think I know the picture. Yeah. I didn't see it this time recently, but I feel like Speaker 1 00:15:31 It was like the same Speaker 2 00:15:31 Time you and I have discussed that picture before. Yeah, I think so. Speaker 1 00:15:35 Um, us discussing a photo of someone from the Sopranos I'm shocked. Speaker 2 00:15:40 Yeah. No, this that's just, that's definitely not something we do. Speaker 1 00:15:44 <laugh> um, before getting into Kira, I kind of had a couple more things that I wanted to say about Garrick. Um, Speaker 2 00:15:52 Please. Speaker 1 00:15:53 So like we obviously know that like Garrick was a supposed, you know, spy possibly, cuz they'll, they'll never tell. Um, but like Garrick, like Andrew Robinson is a great actor as Garrick, but like Garrick is a great actor in the show. Um, I love when he does spy shit and he's like kind of telling these people what's what, but he's just bullshitting them and he's so good at it. Um, so I was just thinking I would watch a spinoff of Garrick's spy career called the Taylor, which would have a similar tone to the Americans. Do you wanna, do you wanna write that show with me? Speaker 2 00:16:36 Whew. Maybe? I don't know. Like would he be like undercover somewhere? Like what's Speaker 1 00:16:43 Yeah, he would be undercover as a tailor, but he would be like Speaker 2 00:16:47 A, oh, so we're just doing deep space nine then? Speaker 1 00:16:49 No, but it would be Speaker 2 00:16:50 Like, or are we no, Speaker 1 00:16:51 But like it's it's from his perspective Speaker 2 00:16:54 Mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 1 00:16:56 Like Speaker 2 00:16:56 The, does someone have to pull his tooth out? Cuz he doesn't want to go see Julian. Cuz he broke his tooth on a spy mission. Speaker 1 00:17:05 I haven't gotten that far yet, Speaker 2 00:17:07 But you've seen it all though. Haven't you? Speaker 1 00:17:09 Yes. Oh no, I watched it before you. Speaker 2 00:17:12 Yeah, no like, okay. No, Speaker 1 00:17:13 I was just playing along and you just ruined it. Thank you. Speaker 2 00:17:17 Well, I'm just worried I spoiled you on something. One of the most like evocative scenes in the show, Speaker 1 00:17:23 You have not spoiled beyond the Americans. I watched it before you did. Um, but yeah, sorry. Speaker 2 00:17:32 No, this, this is all good. Speaker 1 00:17:34 So Kira gets fucking kidnapped in this shit. <laugh> um, I love that. It was like, Hey Kira. Remember when you were at like Elm spur the labor camp? No, I do not remember that. I'm holding a phone up to my ear ear right now. I just need everyone to know that, Hey, I gotta go check out this thing that doesn't make any sense. Oh wait. Kira never showed up. She's kidnapped. Speaker 2 00:18:03 Yeah. I, I think that that's it was quite, quite clever and quite well planned of the obsidian order, like how they got ki in a position off the station where they, she could be like kidnapped and then surgically altered to a PR Kardashian. Right. So they like, yeah. Cause falsified records Speaker 1 00:18:22 Records. Yeah. She's of course. She's gonna go check that out. Like Speaker 2 00:18:25 I was, and not only did they falsify records, they had like a false witness that was mentioned there as well. That Kira yeah, that Speaker 1 00:18:32 Got disappeared <laugh> Speaker 2 00:18:34 Yeah, Speaker 1 00:18:34 Eventually. Yeah. Um, I really cannot imagine being Kira and like waking up with that Kardasian face. Um, like, yeah, that must have been so traumatizing Speaker 2 00:18:52 A hundred percent. And like this is where sometimes like I feel like it's a little bit of like a, be careful what I wish for like sort of situation where I kind of want this episode to explore that type of body dysmorphia more. Right. And the feeling of like, not belonging in, you know, what, what you, your own, your own skin. We do have Speaker 1 00:19:19 Whatever, have one seen a little later where she like punches the mirror. Um, so at least we like, we do see her anger about it. Speaker 2 00:19:29 Yeah. And I, and I guess like in fairness to this is a pretty like high drama, like spy adjacent plot. So maybe like they're like we, well, like yes, there would be some kind of just morphia going on here, but you know, we also have these other like P like political machinations. Yeah. But then also like, I feel like if they could have been cuz it's nineties star Trek really Hamy if they had like tried to have a very special episode on body dysmorphia <laugh> Speaker 1 00:20:00 Yeah. And it, it might have been a little too much for one episode too, um, with all the SP stuff. Um, but it, I mean, it's always good when you have the time to go through different issues that your characters may be going through. Yeah. Um, so the, so we meet this dude named N tech and he is trying to he's with the obsidian order and he's trying to convince Kira that she's actually this Kardashian named IA who was made Bejo to like infiltrate the resistance. And I'm just like, this guy is sus, um, and upon the third and when I was watching for the third time, I realized something interesting, which kind of made me, I mean, obviously I didn't think that this was like, cuz I didn't remember the episode. I didn't think Kira was like act actually Kardashian <laugh>. Um, but it was interesting to me that he was the only one that was like telling her information about what her, what she was doing, like undercover or like what, there was that one scene where he like says a memory of hers or something. And she's like, how did you know that? And he's like, we put that in your brain or whatever. Like everyone else, like the, the char Laga the guy that was her dad supposed dad, like he's Speaker 2 00:21:20 On the more, Speaker 1 00:21:21 Yeah. Like he's telling her things from like maybe her childhood or whatever, but like the other guy is the only one who's trying to actually like, I don't know if it's gas lighting. I always get like a little confused about the real definition of that. But he, it, that it feels to me like that's what he's doing and Speaker 2 00:21:43 Tuck or Speaker 1 00:21:44 KA more. No, cuz I think the dad legitimately the dad legitimately thinks that's his daughter. Speaker 2 00:21:50 Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like the way that, like, I think N tech like, especially when Kira is so certain earlier on before she's been like has been broken down a bit more and like starts questioning, um, questioning the nature of her reality to invoke Westworld mm-hmm <affirmative> and show whose third season I didn't finish. And fourth season is currently airing as the recording podcast. Speaker 1 00:22:17 I never finished season one. So Speaker 2 00:22:20 Fair enough was probably my favorite season. Um, but yeah, like I, I think it, it definitely probably fits more than a lot of people use that like definition of the word. Um, because again Speaker 1 00:22:32 It has become yeah, no Speaker 2 00:22:34 One of those words that people using correctly, but Speaker 1 00:22:36 Yeah. Which is why I, I try to be so careful when I use that word and I had recently watched the movie Gaslight and that kind of helped a little bit with, uh, the definition. Excellent movie, by the way. I think we brought it up on the episode where we were talking about our favorite nos, but I had not seen it yet Speaker 2 00:22:59 Between that. And then you watching the rescue ranges movie and getting a really succinct definition of the uncanny valley. It's it's been a big year for you for Speaker 1 00:23:11 Listeners until I watched the chip and Dale's rescue Rangers movie, which I genuinely loved. I really need to wa rewatch it. I was only pretending that I understood what uncanny valley meant. I did not understand. Um, and I'll be honest since watching that movie, I've already forgotten what it means. <laugh> so I gotta watch the movie again. That is the one good thing about like watching things for me is that I don't always remember them. So it's like watching it again for the first time. Speaker 2 00:23:44 Well, it's really like the best of both worlds with you on this podcast. Right? Cause on, on the madman pod, there's two people that have seen it before. One person who hasn't and then you're like the best of both worlds. Right? You're like two hosts and one. Speaker 1 00:23:59 Yeah. And I am on when I am on your madman podcast though. I remember everything it's like burned in my brain. Speaker 2 00:24:08 Oh, you remember it better than I do. Speaker 1 00:24:10 Yeah. So, well I've Speaker 2 00:24:11 Seen it. You've seen it more than me though. So yeah. Yeah. You've seen it like I've seen deep space nine. Speaker 1 00:24:16 Yeah. Oh, that's cute. Speaker 2 00:24:20 Oh, was I go at a question for you? Speaker 1 00:24:22 Yeah. You had a Speaker 2 00:24:23 Question, right? Okay. I remember what it was that wasn't derailing. No worries. No worries. So Elise I've Speaker 1 00:24:30 Questions. I derailed you. Sorry. Okay. I'm ready. Lay. Speaker 2 00:24:33 Okay. Elise. So I have a question for you. If you're ready. Speaker 1 00:24:37 I'm ready. Now, Speaker 2 00:24:39 How did you feel about the portrayal of laic Gamar who is basically the target of this obsidian order operation that, that involves, you know, breaking down Kira and convincing her she's someone else that she's this man's daughter and everything else. Um, before the, before the route, sorry. Before the reveal that he's part of the dissident movement, just when we know that he's like one of the highest standing people in the Kardashian, military central command as this like basically one of the, the head fascists in the fascist Kardashian government, um, being portrayed as such like a like Bo kind fatherly figure. And I know it gets complicated with the whole like, oh, he's a dissident. So he is good. Like, and he's been the target at all, but I just wondered as you were watching it the first couple times before remembering the reveal and everything else, if that elicited any specific feelings and how, if so, how you felt about that? Speaker 1 00:25:47 I'm sure. George W. Bush was a lovely father. Like of course they're gonna show this like person part of some shitty regime as like a good father. Like it just feels, um, I, I will say until the twist, I really thought he was in on it, whatever was happening. Um, Speaker 2 00:26:08 Right. Speaker 1 00:26:09 So I didn't trust him. Not that I trusted him later, but I, Speaker 2 00:26:15 But we're supposed to trust him more than end tech. I think Speaker 1 00:26:18 That's Speaker 2 00:26:19 True. Like at least originally like there, like early on, like there's theoretically coming for like the same goals, but like it's not even a good cop, bad cop thing. It's the more well patriarchal, like fatherly. Like I love you or my daughter, I miss you like thing. And then like protecting her as much as you can. I, I still, also in tech, Speaker 1 00:26:45 I still also felt like while that might have been happening, I felt like he, even though he was in the whatever position he had in the government, I still felt like, because in tech was part of the obsidian order that N tech was more powerful than him. And I kind of felt like the father was his arm was being twisted to act certain ways. Speaker 2 00:27:13 Right. Right. Speaker 1 00:27:15 And then after the twist, um, it kind of reminded me of like, like bail or Ghana <laugh> a little bit, but not as likable <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:27:30 Can you tell me more about that? Speaker 1 00:27:32 Um, well obviously, um, you know, the, the one season of, um, the Kenobi, uh, series, I don't know if that's something that's continuing or was a mini series or whatever, just finished and just the, um, you know, it was more like, you know, guy in the government who like, obviously is with the rebels or the dissenters. That's all. It was, there was not, there was not a deep connection. Um, I wasn't even thinking like the, the, I mean, I guess the da, you know, the, you know, father of a daughter helped a little bit getting there, but that's about it. There wasn't like a deep process going on to get there. Speaker 2 00:28:20 So what you're saying is, as the father of daughters, I am, uh, a agent, a cog in this, you know, horrible regime, but actually at night I'm working to change it from outside and inside the system as the father of daughters. <laugh> this, that, that that's Speaker 1 00:28:40 I'm so, yeah. Yeah. They're, they're trying to help, but like, you know, they're not fighting the patriarchy or anything. They're just like, well, I have a daughter, so I, you know, I should care about this. They're not just like, oh, humans or whatever species, like we should care about them just cuz we care about them. Speaker 2 00:28:59 Yeah. And I thought like, like kind of like the, the snapshot into the widespread influence that we're kind of talking about here of, of the obsidian in order being interesting, where they put listening, like devices in all of the homes and like, you know, the ways in which a lot of, um, civil liberties and like righted to privacy don't exist in Kardia. But as a senior official, he gets some of those things that other people don't get. Right. Um, so yeah, it's, I don't know, not great. Could asks you, I think it has problems. Speaker 1 00:29:40 I kind of, um, um, oh, so just, I mean, I think we can get into the ending of the episode if you're ready for that. Yep. Um, you know, Garrick and Cisco busted in with OTO, I like forgot OTO was there, um, to rescue Kira. And I love that Garrick says things like treason, like beauty is in the eye of the Boulder <laugh> um, which is like the Vegas shit, even though it's on point <laugh>. Um, I did like that they did throw in that like Julian did a test on, um, Kira sent out a 23 AME, uh, DNA test and came back a hundred percent Bejo so that's good. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:30:33 Yeah. And what's like interesting about, Speaker 1 00:30:37 Sorry. Very amused by my own joke. Speaker 2 00:30:40 It's good. It's good. I, I had a polite ch inside my head. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:30:48 Sorry. Continue. Speaker 2 00:30:51 No, but originally Robert hear Wolf, the, the writer of the episode wanted, Bashier not to confirm, confirm that Kara was a hundred percent Bejo based on her 23 and me results, but that he couldn't confirm either way, whether she was a Kardashian replacement or the authentic Bejo and Kira, which would leave Kira permanently unsure of her original identity Wolf felt this would E emphasize that our identity is based on our experiences and who we have been and, and who we have been, regardless of one's actual actions, quote, she has been ki Reese. She may not be the air quotes, real ki and Reese. She may be a replacement, but she's ki Reese now. And it doesn't matter. Your identity is who you are. It doesn't matter how you get there. It doesn't matter whether it's true or a lie if you've lived it long enough. Speaker 2 00:31:42 It's true. However, this idea was dropped from the, the original script. And this is a, a clip in the DVD special features can kind of remember they're hidden files and the original DVD sets. So if you moved around your remote randomly on various screens, little things would highlight that weren't actual options on the menu and you get these little clips and, and tidbits, which is a very like 2003 ish era, whatever the original DVDs came out, mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, sort of like special feature in special features thing. Yeah. And like I fully understand in the idea of like DS nine, being a syndicated show that wasn't yet fully serialized. Like it will be in its final, like 10 episodes in season seven, um, where they wouldn't want to do that much of a, like a drastic kind of addition or change to a character. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I get it. Speaker 2 00:32:36 But like, again, I feel like this, this, I hope this isn't like a, a monkeys paw type situation. Um, but the idea of like our, our identities being able to be malleable and formed and not necessarily like who defined by the conditions of what we, what our birth was, um, combined with some of the body dysmorphia that Kira has when she wakes up after being surgically altered, to be Kardashian a way that ties in like a little bit with the idea of identity and who we are and who we want to, who we are, who we present ourselves to be, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I think is really interesting. And would've been something I think I personally would've liked this episode to like more explicitly explore. I understand again, why they didn't. And I think that this is a strong episode as is, and again, I don't maybe the version of this episode that explores some of those issues more explicitly. Isn't good. <laugh>, mm-hmm <affirmative> because you know, of, of the time that it's not going to be what I necessarily want it to be. Um, but yeah. I just think there's something like interesting there that they kind of left on the table. Speaker 1 00:34:02 Yeah. Hmm. I can't, I didn't think about it. I'll be honest, um, until you brought it up, but I would be really interested in seeing that kind of discussion. Speaker 2 00:34:17 And I like, and I know this is getting, I mean, not off topic and like, this is our podcast, so we can like talk about whatever, but like it's not one of the explicit teams, like that's the whole like dissidents, the city oor. It's like, you know, the, the Americans, the spy episode is what this episode is. Right. But like, it makes me wonder in the star Trek universe in the 24th century where we see that people can relatively simply speaking, seemingly be surgically altered. Right. The idea of like the mall ability of like identity that is there and like that, like isn't, I mean, the fact that isn't explored more is like star Trek being a product of its own time. Right. But like, I'm wondering if that's something that then maybe kind of modern star Trek can maybe be more open to exploring. And like, again, I don't think I necessarily want it to use a, like aliens of the week solely as allegory, cuz even though that is like very star Trek. Right. I think allegory has its, its, its, well, they had Speaker 1 00:35:25 All in the first episode of strange new world, they had um, some characters surgically altered and they did not discuss this really at all either didn't they Speaker 2 00:35:36 That's right. That's right. Yeah. They that weird gene splicing thing. Yeah. Um, or that gene therapy thing. Yeah. Right. It's just, and I mean I guess Speaker 1 00:35:46 Okay. Felt like I remembered us having it recently and I was like, it's on that PI it was that pilot definitely when they were going to get una. Speaker 2 00:35:54 And then there was the unah episode where they're talking about the like, you know, genetic modifications and like, you know, the stuff being outlawed post the eugenics wars. Yep. And like things like that. Um, listeners put a pin in, in that topic for, for a later day for us to, to talk about maybe, maybe not wink, wink, wink. Um, but yeah, it just, I don't know. It's I think there's like some untapped story potential there. Right. And like, I don't know. Good, bad and different. And maybe I hope this isn't one of those, like, like I said, those monkey paw moments where we get some really hand fisted alien, like, you know, trans allegory around the corner, that's like problematic. Cuz we, we spoken into the universe and like, you know, dancing, it's gonna be about dancing around it, but like get that. Yeah, exactly. Like there's my Hebrew coming out. Um, Speaker 1 00:36:52 You, you are so important that if, if like anyone writes an episode, they're gonna be like, it's, you know, Matt said, this is all Matt's fault. Like in the corner Speaker 2 00:37:04 Star Trek will start to have a Mia PLE for like hiring that fake indigenous person to be the cultural consultant for all the hamfisted racist shit they put in with Chikota Voyager that they'll do some really like ham fisted, like fake indigenous person, like episode that'll be problematic or something, I guess, I guess that's like the danger of what I'm talk. What I'm kind of like talking about here is having story potential. But like yeah. I think there's like something there and I'd be curious. I think I would be curious <laugh> for, for star Trek to do something with that. Um, alright Elise, I don't know about you, but we've been chatting for a little bit. Um, and yeah, I'm, I'm feeling kind of quenched. I need my thirst quenched. So who are you thirsting for this week on the Altair water thirst. Squanch check. Speaker 1 00:37:56 I'm kind of into everything that Garrick's doing in this episode, especially when he's like major. I don't think I've seen you look so ravishing. Um, I just love compliments, so that was just very exciting for me. <laugh> please tell me I'm wonderful. And then, you know, we'll see what happens next. Nice. What about you? Speaker 2 00:38:20 Um, uh, I like, I feel like with all our whole talk about this and you know, the body dysmorphia of it all, I feel like a little weird saying this, but like I think the non visitors going to be incredibly attractive in no matter what prosthetic Speaker 1 00:38:38 Like fair Speaker 2 00:38:40 Put her in. Like I think zombie the no visitor would still probably do it for me. Speaker 1 00:38:45 So I mean she has really nice eyes and those are gonna come through regardless of your makeup. Speaker 2 00:38:50 Yeah. Yeah. What about the most star Trek thing of the episode? Speaker 1 00:38:56 I first apologies if you're hearing fireworks. Um, that is something that happens in the United States on July 4th, not to date us, but yeah, it's gonna go for a while. Um, I, I think the fact that at the ends of the episode, did you ask me what my most star Trek thing was? <laugh> Speaker 2 00:39:19 Yes, I did. Speaker 1 00:39:20 Okay. Skip. Okay, cool. Um, probably me wondering what happens next. Like does Kira report that LA got's daughter is like on Bejo somewhere to the Batur leadership? Like she like Kira knows there's a spy <laugh> does she tell anyone? But so basically the fact that like we'll never get follow up on, on any of that is the most star Trek thing for me. What about you? Speaker 2 00:39:48 Yeah, I, I think it's similar. I think that too, that we have seemingly this like character has this new, like Karara has this potential like bail Orgon surrogate adopted father thing, cuz obviously Kira's an orphan as she's, you know, talked about before mm-hmm <affirmative> um, that we may like never see again, it's like this character has life changing experience and then it's like never referenced again. That just feels like very star Trek to me. But it's also very of its Speaker 1 00:40:16 Time. It's kind of interesting. Like, is he gonna be like her Dr. Mora? <laugh> probably not. I just feel like Kardashians and the guy and Dr. Mora have similar hairstyles. <laugh> that's all. Speaker 2 00:40:31 I mean, the thing with Dr. Mora Mo more Mora is that, you know, he is got the whole, like I was a scientist that was working during the Kardashian occupation, but I was just doing science, but I was also working during the Kardasian occupation. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like you yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 00:40:50 On that note <laugh> you can find me on Twitter and letter box at Elise underscore ten eight E L Y S E underscore T E N D I Speaker 2 00:41:02 Yeah, I can find me on Twitter in letter box as well is at Manchu, M a T T Y H U G H. You can catch us together on Twitter and Instagram at pod Rael, email us at pod race, gmail.com. Speaker 1 00:41:16 Please remember to rate and review us on the podcasting system of your choice. Thank you again to DJ empirical for our inter stellar theme song Speaker 2 00:41:26 And as always thank you again to our editor Mila until next time, computer and program. Speaker 1 00:41:34 Bye.